Archive for May, 1998

n: a note

A brief note:

  1. Assume that there is a subject-object split. (This is the point that I have been trying to iron out about whether there is a tree or whether there may both be a tree and not be a tree. I haven’t explored it to my satisfaction, but I’m gonna run with what I have so far.)
  2. Divide reality into two parts which we will call mythos and logos.
  3. Logos is what is; objective reality. (The fact that there is a tree there or not.)
  4. Mythos is value; subjective reality. (This is not what I was talking about when I was talking about disagreeing as to whether there is a tree there or not, that is distortion of objective reality. Mythos is is the place where, when you play the game of asking the question “Why?” over and over again you arrive at.)

(I am sitting here writing on the computer.


Because I think that these ideas are important to understanding reality. (Thus far this statement is misleading because I have not answered the question, I have just elaborated on what I am doing.) And I think that people are happier when they better understand reality because they are better able to get the results that they want. (Still haven’t answered the question. These are logos statements about the nature of the action; I am saying that doing x will achieve y and z, not why I am doing x.) I want to make people happier and more content. (This is a value-based statement, this is the why; this is mythos.)


Because I think that the world operates more smoothly when the individuals comprising it are happy and competent. (The word “smoothly” is a bit tricky because it is a subjective term based upon value, so this statement is based upon value, it is not though an expression of value. If you define “smoothly” according to a set of criteria then either the world runs more smoothly or it does not. The statement is logos because it is about the nature of what is.) I like it when things run smoothly. (That is mythos.)


Because I have to expend less of my energy to form stable relationships. I do not like expending energy in ways that I consider to be unnecessary.)

That should show the difference between mythos and logos. The logos can be tested objectively, the mythos just is.

  1. Most of the problems that people have with coping with reality come from a confusion of mythos and logos. I’ll go into that later.
  2. One set of values, the small self centered ones could be seen as arising from evolution and survival of the fittest. “I’ll watch out for myself first and screw all the rest of you or I’ll die out.”
  3. I think that there is a second set of selfless values. Where do they arise from? How universal are they? When people are being selfish are they clouding this other set of values? Is one “truer” than another?

Well, I’m gonna go mow the lawn.

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re: to m on being right

This is a response to M on some questions he asked me about my journal about trees and truth.

what is “right”?

This is a question that I was skirting in my journal. Well, almost. I was using “right” to mean true observation. “True” being in line with what is.

The part where I was saying that I think there either is a tree there or there isn’t, is the basics of the argument. We can say that Wayne and I both have our own truth and each of us are equally “right,” but I do not see that happening. I observe that there is a greater context than the subjective and whether or not I think that there is a tree in front of me, if in reality (the grater context) there is a tree there, then I am going to suffer the repercussions of running into a tree whether I acknowledge the existence of the tree on not.

why are you so attached to it?

Because I see it acting on me all the time. I have heard people try to describe other ways of thinking, but they cannot express what I am doing differently from what they are doing. It has been my experience that most of the subjective perspectives (all the different ways of looking at an issue) comprise parts of the absolute perspective. My drive to understand the absolute drives me to understand as many of the subjectives as I can and I have tried very hard to understand something other than the logical organization of the universe in hope of having a broader perspective, but I have not had any success.

That was one of my main questions about the piece that you wrote the other day about faith. You said that you were rejecting the strictly rational ordering of the universe. On what grounds? What have you observed that does not happen for a reason? Why do you reject rationality? I have heard arguments, but in nearly all of them there was a fundamental flaw in their picture of rationality, they introduced concepts that are commonly associated with rationality like logical detachment.

Rationality is the basis for an absolute perspective. It says nothing about that perspective, but until rationality breaks down the absolute holds.

I have a pair of pliers here. I pick them up. I hold them in the air. I drop them. They fall to the table. They could have just hovered in the air, they could have changed into a brown mouse, they could have melted. None of those things are irrational any more than their falling to the table was rational. What actually happens has nothing to do with rationality, it is whether on not what happened happened for a reason that matters.

I do not observe things happening for no reason. Do you?

I have found the process of maturation largely being about accepting reality for what it is and to stop trying to force it into my subjective concept of what it should be. If there is no rationality then there are no repercussions for our actions, because to say that our actions have affects is to say that affects are generated by causes and if you have a cause and affect relationship you have a rational system.

All ideas about non-judgement in Buddhism break apart (as I understand them) without an absolute. If there exists nothing apart from judgement then what happens when you cease to judge? The question is a NULL because it is not possible to let a greater picture take over if there is no greater picture.

I think that the reason that the rational is so often attacked in religion is that people who practice rationality have a tendency to attach to what they observe and understand and this attachment clouds their perception of reality. That is the most common misnomer that I encounter when trying to discuss rationality is that the small mindedness that oftentimes results from rationality is rationality. It is not.

how do you determine it?

By observation. I say that there is a tree and I go to climb it and I go through it then I am not “right.” Either there is a breakdown in my perception of the tree or my definition of a “tree” is out of sync with reality.

To switch it over to God. If I say that being saved from sin brings around the changes x, y, and z and that the qualified for being saved is believing that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of “God” with properties a, b, and c, and then I go out and I observe that non-saved people sometimes exhibit x, y, and z and saved people sometimes do not, then either my perceptions are flawed or my concept of saved is out of sync with reality.

This was the basis for my break with fundamentalism, I know lots of really nice, compassionate, trustworthy, involved, non-saved people and I know some very selfish saved people. My definition did not hold with reality; either I was delusioned about what I was seeing or my religion was out of whack. I decided on the latter and started looking for ways to change what I believed so that it held with observation.

is it possible for you and wayne to both be “right”?

This is the crux of all that I have been saying. None of it is solid for a variety of reasons. If you are looking for absolute certainty do not do so by looking to the absolute perspective. There is exactly 1 way to understand everything that is 100% in sync with reality. Until you have that all that you know is that you don’t know anything. Because there is a piece of the puzzle that is missing (which can be observed so long as observation does not hold up with the ideas (unless the ideas about what “being in sync” means are the ones that are flawed)) you only know that anything is possible. Nothing can be discounted, you don’t know anything except for the fact that you don’t know anything and even that is questionable.

I have a very strong suspicion that it is not possible for there to both be a tree and not be a tree and until I have evidence to the contrary I will treat that suspicion as fact, but it is absolutely possible for both me and Wayne to be right. I don’t know anything.

That is what the basis of Perry 6 means to me. I know that I don’t know anything, but I treat my suspicions as facts until I have reason to change my suspicions. If I were bound to operating on things that I knew for sure I wouldn’t be able to do anything.

I have a story which I put in the computer to use in my _ZMM_ discussion and it deals with the subjectivity of objectivity. I’ll send it to you and to anyone else who is interested. It really is a good story it’s just a bit long and I know that some people don’t have much time.

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j: perspective

I’ve been reading Zen and the Art and trying to figure out how the world works and I keep pulling in more and more and the ideas just keeps getting bigger and bigger. I’ll be walking along and I’ll see something and I’ll ask myself “well doesn’t that contradict what you said here?” And then I’ll think about it and I’ll move things around until this new thing fits. But the ideas are getting to be so inclusive that I cannot write about them, at least not in any reasonable amount of space. So, what I’m gonna do is just put out little parts that I think are important.

Part number one comes back around to the talk that was going on a while ago about Kevin the barber and paradox.

In case you don’t remember the story of Kevin is that in a town there lives a barber who shaves all the people who don’t shave themselves and only the people who don’t shave themselves. Since Kevin doesn’t shave people who shave themselves he can’t shave himself and since he doesn’t shave himself he shaves himself. (We assume for the maintenance of the paradox that Kevin is shaven.)

I argued at the time and still will argue that other than the paradoxes value for “stretching the mind.” It is of little other value. If I go to this town and talk to Kevin he will either be shaved or he won’t; intellectual nuances aside.

I do see a useful purpose for that method of thinking though.

Wayne and I were discussing this before we left. We were walking down the sidewalk in front of the UC and there is a big tree that grows up out of the sidewalk. We were discussing the scenario wherein I see a tree ahead of us and Wayne sees just a continuation of the sidewalk. There is an obvious difference of perspective and we have a dichotomy. Wayne says that there is no tree and I say that there is a tree.

Let’s assume for the moment that neither Wayne nor I is intentionally being deceitful and we both truly are experiencing what we say that we are viewing.

The first question is of course, which one of us is right.

It is arguable that we both are and that reality is a product of our perceptions (mythos based logos), but I do not see this being played out in the real world in day to day life. I think that if Wayne and I were to hold hands and walk across the questionable portion of the sidewalk one of us would be surprised.

In short I think that either there is a tree there or there isn’t.

In this case it is fairly easy to determine what the truth is. We walk through the “tree” and if I pass through it then Wayne is right and if Wayne bonks his head then I was. Of course if I am properly delusioned when I walk up to the tree and imagine that I put my hand against it then I will experience the proper sensations, but that is secondary.

There are other cases though where the truth is not so easy to determine. God for instance. How do you empirically test for the existence of God? I don’t know of any method using tools that we have thus far, then again if there is an omnipresent being that we are attempting to experiment for such a concept is ludicrous for to be able to say that “here we have something” we have to be standing somewhere that the something is not.

Say you are in a room that is somehow lit in such a way that it is impossible to produce a shadow. (A room with no light at all would work.) And also you have no method for changing the amount of light. Someone tells you that darkness no longer exist so you want to test for dark, how do you do it? You can’t.

Now imagine that you grew up in that room and have never known any other perspective. The concept of “darkness” would make no sense to you. If I came into the room and tried to explain it to you I think that it would be impossible. How would I describe what light was? I would say light is “this” and wave my hands around in the air. Maybe I would have some luck if I tried to describe light scientifically saying “light is like bunches of little balls that bounce off of objects and are intercepted by your eyes.” I could give a name to the property that causes of illumination and call it light, and attribute certain qualities of the environment to light. (What if it were completely dark?) But how would I describe dark? I can talk about where the balls that make up light are reflected in such a way that there are less of them in some places and I could get you to an academic understanding of darkness, but if you doubted me there is no way that I could prove to you that this mythic “darkness” exists.

The point is that the only reason that I have any idea of light and darkness is because I have been exposed to both. If I had grown up in that room with you then I would have no concept of darkness either. It is not a matter of intelligence or perceptiveness because in that room there is nowhere to stand to say that things could be any other way.

In the same way, if all the world is a box and God is omnipresent we have no way of even conceiving of what God is because we have no way of conceiving what God is not. We only experience God.

But all of that was a tangent. Back to the tree and paradox.

Wayne’s take on the tree (and the existence of God) is that when we are dealing with a person who thinks that there is a tree then it is best to use that perspective when dealing with them because all of their reactions and thoughts are going to be based around the idea that there is a tree there, because as far as they are concerned there is.

Except, I argued, whenever they try to go walking through the tree they are going to go bonk, so the perspective that there is no tree is important to maintain too.

The statements “There is a tree there” (subjective truth) and “There is not a tree there” (objective truth) are contradictory, but for the maintenance of the perspective that is best able to deal with reality both are necessary. “Holding” two contradictory perspectives is one of the methods that is used for dealing with paradox. Which of the contradictory statements is true? Both.

Again though, this is not a true paradox because one truth is an absolute and the other is a subjective delusion. The cognitive processes used in thinking about Kevin are put to use here though.

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pr: more of what I'm up to

We sent this out last night. I’ll write about it later. Right now I’m gonna go be depressed for a bit.



Holcomb Will Not Seek First Congressional Seat

Bristol – Former State Senator and 1996 first district congressional candidate Jim Holcomb said today that he would not seek the Republican nomination for the first district congressional seat held by Bill Jenkins.

Holcomb who had been preparing for a 1998 run, said Republican Party unity going into the 1998 elections was the major factor in his decision.

“I place a high priority on expanding the Republican majority in the U.S. House, and it doesn’t make sense to expend resources that will remain in the Republican column. I want to help Republican candidates in other districts that might not be as favorable to our party as the first district is.”

“I am humbled by the outpouring of support and encouragement from people across East Tennessee. Since 1986, I have enjoyed the support of thousands of grassroots Republicans and I can never adequately express my gratitude to my supporters. I know my decision disappoints many, but I also know they agree with me that having a strong Republican majority to keep Bill Clinton and Al Gore in check must be our top priority,” Holcomb said.

Republican leaders applauded Holcomb’s decision. “Jim Holcomb has clearly put the Republican party first in his decision. I know it must be a difficult one because Jim has strong beliefs which he articulates well, but he also recognizes the importance of party unity. He is a tough campaigner and I know he will continue to play a major role in our party in East Tennessee,” said Representative Jenkins.

House Speaker Gingrich also commended Holcomb’s decision. “Jim Holcomb recognizes the importance of party unity in our battle to expand the Republican majority in the House. Jim is a proven conservative and we know he will be an important part of helping our party reach its goals in 1998,” he said.

Holcomb said contributions he has collected will be returned to the contributors as the campaign closes its federal election accounts. Holcomb, of Bristol, said he will continue to be active in politics as he pursues career opportunities in the area.

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j: week number one

Well, week number one of summer 1998 has come and gone and where am I at now? Hmm, wow, it has only been 7 days since I left school. It feels like so long ago.

I guess begin from the beginning. Last friday at about 3:30 in the morning I arrived back at the Happy Holcomb Home with Auntie Sharon and Brother Brett; my worldly possessions loaded in the back of the pick-up.

We headed out for Asheville the next day, the whole family (well, minus Matt because he was working his new job as a waiter that night.) The trip was primarily uneventful except for the remarkably beautiful weather in North Carolina which was nothing like the crappy weather back in Tennessee. That and North Carolina has done an excellent job of putting wild flowers in the medians. The roads were abloom.

Upon arrival at our grandmother’s timeshare things were fairly uneventful for the remainder of the evening, just family chit-chat and the like. On Saturday my parents headed to another timeshare to get prostelatized and awarded a cruise while Brett and myself headed to meet up with Matt at the largest climbing gym in the south (or so it is reputed.) We played the monkeys ’til our hands would close no longer. On the three story wall tacked to the front of the building I got photographed by the Greeneville (NC) paper and reportedly I appeared somewhere therein shortly thereafter.

Since returning to Bluff City I have become a dedicated member of the Holcomb Campaign team which means I am a secretary who keeps his mouth shut about any of his liberal college-type views. Btw, my hair is now about 3.5″ shorter than it was, though that change transpired the morning after I arrived (before grandma Holcomb could get a look at me.) I have discovered that being inside all day sucks pretty hard. I can spend as much time in front of the computer screen as about anyone else that I know, but I have been working 8-5 without lunch and it is absolutely mind-numbing.

Let’s see, projects… I am developing a webpage for the campaign. I’ve been playing with POV-Ray and have realized just how much geometry there was for me to forget, also I am doing some CGI work which is where you fill in the little forms and stuff. Today I learned how to make movies, so I’m gonna do that soon. Also, I’m working my way through _Zen_and_the_Art_ slowly but surely and also my mom and I are running. I discovered that 10 pounds when carried 4 miles is much like 45 when bench pressed 75 times; it ain’t much weight, but the time lapse increases the mass somehow.

I’ve been wanting to write more, but working on the computer all day sucks the fun out of doing this stuff. I’ve got lots of ideas, just sitting here is so draining. In fact I’m gonna go home now and take me a nap. =)

I’ve got a mythos v. logos paper that I have all written in my head, but I’ve been here for 9.5 hours already and I am tired. Oh yeah, I have one to write about whining too. =)

Anyhow, that’s where I’m at right now.

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j&q: mbti t/f preference

Hello everybody, hope that the summer has been going well.

I’ve been doing a bit of reading and thinking in the last little bit and one of the subjects that has been occupying has to do with the T/F axis on the MBTI. I consider myself to be a fairly solid T though I am more and more expanding into the F realm. I think that I used to have alot more F, but I got beaten pretty bad in high school and I think that I cut alot of it off because of that.

I was watching “To Kill a Mockingbird” the other day and I was literally about to cry. That was a very new experience for me and it is part of a theme that seems to be occurring that makes me think that I’m getting some feeling back.

Anyhow, I was thinking about what I could do to help myself along and I recognized that I have very little idea of what exactly F is,so I figured I’d think about that some. To this end I checked out the T/F chapter in Gifts Differing only to discover to my dismay that someone had stolen mine away and replaced it with a pile of horse hockey. =) (Not literally.) =)

It seems like what is being described is the simple difference between the concepts of attachment (F) and detachment (T) with a bias against T’s. I do not think that attachment or detachment alone is a suitable basis for mature cognition and I think that this chapter does not describe mature cognitive processes. I recognize people who have extreme preferences either T or F and I do not think that their cognition is as mature (meaning capable of dealing with reality) as it could be. I think that mature cognition (I’m trying not to use “thinking” to describe cognition) is a balance of both attachment and detachment, and this chapter does not describe such.

Here is the chapter. Does anyone else see what I am describing?


Chapter 6

“Effect of the TF Preference”

from: Gifts Differing: Understanding Personality Type

by: Isabel Briggs Myers with Peter B. Myers

Thinking and feeling are rival instruments of decision. Both are reasonable and internally consistent, but each works by its own standards. Jolande Jacobi (1968) says that thinking evaluates from the viewpoint “true-false” and feeling from the viewpoint “agreeable-disagreeable.” This sounds like a thinker’s formulation. “Agreeable” is too pale a word for the rich personal worth of a feeling evaluation.

The important point to recognize is that each kind of judgement has its appropriate field. To use feeling where thinking is called for can be as great a mistake as to use thinking where feeling is needed.

Thinking is essentially impersonal. Its goal is objective truth, independent of the personality and wishes of the thinker or anyone else. A seventeen-year-old introverted thinker, speculating on the method and purpose of Creation, summed it up, “I don’t care what the truth turns out to be — but I want it to hang together.” So long as the problems are impersonal, like those involved in building a bridge or interpreting a statute, proposed solutions can and should be judged from the standpoint “true-false,” and thinking is the better instrument.

But the moment the subject is people instead of things or ideas — and some voluntary cooperation from those people is needed — the impersonal approach is less successful. People (even thinkers) do not like to be viewed impersonally and relegated to the status of “objects.” Human motives are notable personal. Therefore, in the sympathetic handling of people where personal values are important, feeling is the more effective instrument.

To thinkers, the idea of evaluating by means of feeling sounds flighty, unreliable, and uncontrolled, but thinkers are no judges of feeling. They naturally judge all feeling by their own, and theirs is relatively undeveloped and unreliable. When feeling is well developed, it is a stable instrument for discriminating the worth of personal values, selecting as guiding stars those values that rank highest, and subordinating the lesser to the greater. When feeling is extraverted and directed upon other people, it not only recognizes their personal values but manages to convey its own.

Thus, in teaching, in acting and other arts, in oratory and in the humbler branch of persuasion called salesmanship, in the relations of the clergy to their congregations, in family life, in social contacts, and in any sort of counseling, it is feeling which serves as the bridge between one human being and another.

The TF preference is the only one that shows a marked sex difference. The proportion of feeling types appears to be substantially higher among women than among men. This difference in the frequencies of the types for men and women has led to much generalization about the sexes. Women have been assumed to be less logical, more tenderhearted, more tactful, more social, less analytical, and more inclined to take things personally. All these are feeling traits. Feeling types (of either sex) will tend to have them. Thinking types (of either sex) will not. The generalization tends to pass over the women with thinking and the men with feeling, partly because types that do not fit the stereotypes have often learned the art of protective coloration.

The merits of the thinker’s logical approach to life are so obvious and so well known that it has not seemed necessary to discuss them here. (They are treated in some detail in the individual descriptions of the thinking types in Chapter 9.) But it should never be assumed that thinkers have a monopoly on all worthwhile mental activity. They do not even have a monopoly on thinking. Just as thinkers may obtain, on occasion, a very useful supplementary development of feeling that does not interfere with their thinking judgements, so too the feeling types may sometimes enlist their thinking to find the logical reasons needed to win a thinker’s acceptance of a conclusion they have already reached by way of feeling. Before the publication of a cherished piece of work, undertaken from motives of feeling and carried out intuitively, thinking may be used to check for possible flaws and fallacies.

Conventional measures of mental ability, such as intelligence tests and scholarship, show some of the very highest records belong to INFP and INFJ types, who relegate thinking to last place or next to last. The preference for thinking appears to have far less intellectual effect than the preference for intuition, even in some technical fields, such as scientific research, where its influence was expected to be most important.

It would seem, therefore, that the mark of a thinker is not so much the possession of greater mental powers but having them run on a different track. Thinkers are at their best with the impersonal, and they are the most able to handle things that need to be done impersonally. The judge and the surgeon, for example, tend to rule out all personal considerations. One famous surgeon was so impersonal that his wife could not even focus his attention on his own children unless she took them to his office.

Finally, thinking is not always first-class thinking. its product is no better than the facts it started with (and they were acquired by perception of unknown quality) and no better than the logic employed. When a person who reportedly described logic as an organized way of going wrong with confidence, he voiced the distrust of the out-and-out intuitives and the feeling types of such a cut-and-dried method of decision. When feeling types know that they value and idea or a person or a course of action, a thinkers argument designed to confute that value leaves them cold. The thinker’s judgment could be wrong! Thinkers often contradict each other, each one claiming, “This is truth.” The feeling type need only say, “This is valuable to me.”

The summary in Figure 26 differentiates the people in the outer columns of the Type Table from those in the middle columns. The traits mentioned are most evident in the EJ types, whose judging process is both extraverted and dominant and consequently most visible and emphatic. When the judging process is merely the auxiliary, it is subordinate to the perceptions of the dominant process and its manifestations tend to be more moderate.

Thinking Types Feeling Types
Value logic above sentiment. Value sentiment above logic.
Are usually impersonal, being more interested in things than in human relationships. Are usually personal, being more interested in people than in things.
If forced to choose between truthfulness and tactfulness, will usually be truthful. If forced to choose between truthfulness and tactfulness, will usually be tactful.
Are stronger in executive ability than in the social arts. Are stronger in the social arts than in executive ability.
Are likely to question the conclusions of other people on principle – believing them probably wrong. Are likely to agree with those around them, thinking as other people think – believing them probably right.
Naturally brief and businesslike, they often seem to lack friendliness and sociability without knowing or intending it. Naturally friendly, whether sociable or not, they find it hard to be brief and businesslike.
Are usually able to organize facts and ideas into a logical sequence that states the subject, makes the necessary points, comes to a conclusion, and stops there without repetition. Usually find it hard to know where to start a statement or in what order to present what they have to say. May therefore ramble and repeat themselves, with more detail than a thinker wants or thinks necessary.
Suppress, undervalue, and ignore feeling that is incompatible with thinking judgements. Suppress, undervalue, and ignore thinking that is offensive to the feeling judgements.
Contribute to the welfare of society by the intellectual criticism of its habits, customs, and beliefs, by the exposure of wrongs, solution of problems, and the support of science and research for the enlargement of human knowledge and understanding. Contribute to the welfare of society by their loyal support of good works and those movements, generally regarded as good by the community; which they feel correctly about and so can serve effectively.
Are found more often among men than women and, when married to a feeling type, naturally become guardian of the spouse’s neglected and unreliable thinking. Are found more often among women than men and, when married to a thinking type, naturally become guardian of the spouse’s neglected and harassed feelings.

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wq: Martin Niemoller

This is a quote that I have always liked. I think it is a bit more utilitarian than how I think, but an important thought none the less.

They came for the communists,
and I did not speak up because I wasn’t a communist;
They came for the socialists,
and I did not speak up because I was not a socialist;
They came for the union leaders,
and I did not speak up because I wasn’t a union leader;
They came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak up for me.

-Martin Niemoller, 1892-1984

Except I think that I should stand up for the rights of others even if they would not do the same for me. What is right is independent of reciprocality.


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n: J is a fucking idiot =)

I just want this observation down on the record as of now, I think that she is a certifiable fucking idiot.

Good Lord, this is some of the most frustrating things that I have done in a very long time. I would like to sit down with her in a nice quiet place… and beat her head against something very hard for a long time.

Feels good to say that. I have been talking to her for about the last hour and I think that I am the one beating my head against the wall. I have difficulty understanding why in the world someone would choose to live like this. I have been holding on to my composure fairly well and I never once did tell her that I thought she was acting like a spoiled brat.

She is plotting now to go to Bristol at some time with some guy friends of hers from home and find V and beat him up. I can’t tell how much of this is just delusional dreaming to let off steam and how much of this is actually something that she is goofy enough to go out and try. I don’t think much, but she has surprised me before with how far she will carry vendettas.

Good Lord though, I mean what she is saying is that he hurt her feelings so she is going to physically abuse him. I mean, didn’t most people learn in kindergarten that just because little Johnny makes us upset it does not make it ok for us to punch little Johnny. Apparently it didn’t take in this case.

This is just so abysmally stupid that it frustrates the daylights out of me. I explained to her that responding to hurt with hurt simply creates more destructive behavior patterns and it doesn’t solve problems.

She responded that she had tried being nice (a whole two times none the less) and it hadn’t worked. I tried feeding her Games People Play in the hopes that she would recognize something, maybe The Road Less Traveled with its stuff on delaying gratification would help. I doubt it, I think it would take a fucking bazooka to make a dent in her head.

She pities herself for the pain that she has suffered, but she won’t admit it to herself. All through her writing I am wanting to say “oh, poor J, all the stupid things that you do are ok because the big bad world has been picking on you.” It is so evident in her writing I don’t see how she can be putting it in there without seeing it.

It links back to her independence. She is fiercely guarding that and it is to protect that idea that I think is clouding a whole lot of her other issues. I want to take her and stick her out on a desert island for just long enough that she almost but not quite starves to death. That would probably break the fierce “I can always do everything on my own; I don’t need any help.” If I could switch out any neurosis of hers I would like to switch the independence for a codependent attachment, at least then maybe I could get her to listen.

I recognize that what I am writing now is semi-irrational, though not completely. I’ll come back through later and do some cleaning. I also recognize that as A has been telling me not to do I have been holding her to a set of standards that she is not yet ready to hold to. I keep going into long periods of writing about our relationship and I build up a false picture of her that is much higher than what she operates at. Then I talk to her and I hit the wall.

I have been thinking about something that A mentioned in the relationship workshop about having a relationship that berates across Perry level. That is one of the problems that I think is going on here and I am still doubting that it can work at any time i the near future regardless of how much work I out into it. I have needs that I would like to get filled too, and is that going to happen here?

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re: to J on her and Scott

Here is my response to J to a message that she sent me about her and Scott. If anything else comes up I’ll write later. As for now I’ve been writing for the last 4 hours and I want a break.


From:	TTU::WJH3957      "W.J. Holcomb -- Mr. Happy =)"  5-MAY-1998
To:	J
Subj:	re: thoughts

Sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to you on this. As you now apparently know I talked to V last night and he talked to me about what he knew. I guessed what this message was going to be about so I didn’t read it until after my Calculus final so that it wouldn’t fry my brains too much.

I am going to do something different in this piece than I normally when writing to you. I have been taking great pains to stay clear in our relationship and when I have tried to communicate with you I have tried to work through any problems that I have before I talk to you. Believe it or not as of late I have been writing about us for two or three hours a day.

I am going to let you have this journal without going through it and cleaning it up for you. I have already worked on alot of this so I don’t think that it will be too clouded, but I still recognize that I resent you to some extent and that might come out as anger. If it does I will try to identify it and label it as distortion, but I am not going to censor here.

I think that this journal will try to cover all of the problems that I have been having as of late. I’ve already done a set which you got that cover what I think my contributions to the problems have been, now I’m going to give you my opinions on what I think yours have been.

Well, I have been sitting trying to think and sort through my brain. I haven’t decided if i am going to move, and i wish that people would quit deciding for me.

Point number one and point number major; the biggest problem that I have been having in dealing with you is the layer of surety and standoffishness that is constantly being thrown out at me. Being guarded is the same thing as being defensive and being defensive is not the same thing as being open or being vulnerable. It is very hard for me to interact with you when you are sitting in the corner holding a club glaring at me waiting for me to do something to hurt you.

Do you remember the night that we were filming the sex scene and I talked to you about the image that I had of you when you were talking of you crouched in the corner with your hands covering your head, cowered to avoid the pain of another blow? That is still the overpowering image that I have when I am interacting with you, except on top of that there is the animal that has been backed into a corner and will fight its way free. I am trying to be caring and open with you and you keep on biting me.

I have been really uncertain about what to do. To use the animal backed into the corner metaphor, I want to help but any attempts to get closer are met with growls and maybe lunges. And under all that you don’t want to have this tension, I don’t think. I can’t imagine being at odds with the whole world and enjoying it.

That is one of the reasons that I have been having so much trouble. I have been having problems with our relationship for a long time, but I could not approach you without you tensing up. I didn’t know what to do and I kept holding the stuff back and I think that it bottling up is part of the reason that I started to get more and more distant. Not all certainly, but some.

And even now I can see you reading this and none of it really getting through to you; none of it really being listened to and that leaves me not knowing what to do. Are you getting mad now, or perhaps more aptly can you feel you mindset changing and your body tensing up? Do you think that you are really listening? How fast did that answer come? Did you have to look and see or did it come off the top of your head without any real thought?

This is what bothers me when I am talking to you. I do not think that I am being listened to. You have one kind of intimacy need that runs pretty high, physical intimacy; I have another, emotional or intellectual intimacy. It is very important to me to really know who you are and to be able to communicate with that person, but most of the time all that I can see that I am talking to is a wall of defenses and subterfuge.

I do think that you can get past it. I have seen in your writing the longing for a different kind of relationship, but that kind doesn’t just happen. It takes work and it takes being uncomfortable. How do you expect me to love who you are if you keep that person hidden away under a pile of lies?

So I don’t know what’s going to happen. I do know that I will be at home for the summer and that means that we will be apart. I don’t know when i’m going up there to visit relatives so i don’t know when i would get to see you.

The only reason that I know that you are coming to the tri-cities area is because V told me. You have never mentioned this to me.

Are you satisfied with the level of communication that we had in our relationship? I know that my detaching cut down on it alot.

For me, I can see the distance that has grown between us. And I know that a lot of it is my fault. And I regret some of it. But some of it I would do again. Mostly because that is the way that I am.

Please explain. If there are values that you have chosen to live by and are not willing to change then I would really like to know what they are. I am considering the possibility that perhaps we are just two people committed to different values.

Like for me, I am deeply committed to honesty and to connection with other people. If you have values that you are deeply committed to that require me to give those up then there is a terminal conflict because those are things that I have chosen as part of who I am. I allow other people to go against them in their lives, but I will not abandon them in mine. On a more fundamental level those are two of the things that give the world the most value for me and being in a relationship where I was disconnected from them would have no choice but to be unfulfilling.

And I realize that my natural reaction is kicking in to draw apart even further. But another part of me wants to hold on. And it’s just that I haven’t found the balance. And so to keep from being clingy and dependant i draw away.

You know what I say? Fuck the balance. =) I have parts of myself that try to pull me back when I am going deeply into something and “keep me stable.” You know what they are? They are me being afraid.

Wayne and Emily’s relationship has really been taking off as of late. I have been jealous of the level of communication that he gets to take part in. He will point out things to her and she will listen to him. You don’t know how bad I want that listening. It is not a parent – child transaction, if anything it is parent – parent or maybe child – child. Wayne and I communicate in much the same way and there is not a power structure going on between us. I will ask him if he thinks that his stance on issue x is clear and he will look and tell me. What really really matters to me is that he listens and he looks.

Alot of his ability to look is based off of his ability to use an analytical detachment, which if you haven’t done much outside of F stuff can be hard, but I think it is an important skill to learn for dealing with life in general. Some people call it a God’s eye view where you step out of the emotions and issues of the moment and take a wider view. I have been doing it alot in the last few days; stepping outside of the fact that my relationship seems to be coming down around my head and asking myself “is this really that bad?” It helps me to calm down and try to deal with the situation decisively, because really it is not the end of the world.

I’ve had so many things to make me think lately. And since the musical started. I never had time to sing for myself anymore. But I do remember that last Saturday morning after you left. I sang and sang and sang until my voice was gone. I sang anything I wanted to. And it was while I was singing that I found that part of myself that I thought I had forgotten. And I remembered that the song flowed through me. And that music was my life. And so I sat pondering. Music is emotional. Music is passionate. And music is cold. And I am all of those things. But my music had been put away for other things. I didn’t have time to sing. At that point I felt so sad that I almost cried. But I pulled myself together.

I think I’ll let this section stand. It is very pretty and a good description of a set of circumstances, but I am not sure that it has much to do with me except as a lead in to the next section. I take this more of a statement of who you are.

Am I getting it?

Perhaps just one question, how often do you fall apart? It surprises me when you say that you do at all. I have seen you lose control and blow up, but I have never seen you fall apart. Falling apart is so helpless and vulnerable, do you do that?

I fell for you because of the music. I thought that it affected you as it did me. But I don’t know anymore.

From reading the last section I don’t think so. I use music to express myself and to move my heart and my soul, but there is a distinct division between where I begin and the music ends. It is a tool.

I think that on the whole my strong rationality keeps me from partaking in it in the same way that you do. Perhaps as the rationality changes so will the experience of music.

And I realize that I am growing dissatisfied with the relationship. Music, which is what I live for, is not a part of it.

Explain how music is what you live for? I say sometimes that people are what I live for and on occasion experience and maybe myself and sometimes God, but I have trouble transferring that kind of value to music. What does it mean to you and why?

Physicality (and yes you can be physical without sex) was non-existent.

Yah ha! We have a barb. Not an especially satisfying barb, but a barb none the less. Why, when I am doing something that dissatisfied you don’t you just come out and say it to me?

I am taking the aside “(and yes you can be physical without sex)” to be an expression of your frustration that I seemed to have so much importance placed on you going to the health department and the assumed accompanying intercourse. Why don’t you just come out and ask me why I am not acting the way that you want me to? I might have no reason other than I didn’t know that you wanted it.

I would guess that it is the vulnerability of asking for something, that is what always stopped me. If I ask someone for something or ask them to help me then I leave open the possibility that they can refuse me and hurt me. I don’t like to get my hopes up that high for fear that they will be dashed.

Except for me I have given up complaining about other people not doing what I want when I don’t tell them that I want it. Like the letter that I sent you asking you to talk about the issues that you had that you thought were clouding our relationship. I had hoped that you would go into them after I sent out my stuff that I thought was a problem, but you didn’t. I got a little miffed, but rather than complaining I did something about it and sent a direct message asking for exactly what I wanted.

Would you like to know why I did not respond as well to your intimacy needs as you would have liked? It wasn’t in this case because I was unaware. Rather the physical intimacy stuff has been making me uncomfortable for as long as there have been problems with communication, which for me has been a while. Physicality is hollow for me if I do not trust and have faith in the person that I am doing it with. I certainly enjoy it, but not without a basis in a relationship. It just isn’t much fun.

And I simply could not understand why you got so exited when you said that eliot had put down in the four quartets exactly what you were thinking. Why quote him? Why not quote yourself? Why is he so important? Can you not look inside yourself and see those same thoughts? And can you not say that “these are mine, i don’t care who else has said them, these are mine” I see you use quotes so much…..even quotes about how words “crack and break”. But quotes are just words. And they are meaningless. The only meaning lies inside of us.

Exactly. Eliot would be completely meaningless for me if I could not find a basis for what he was saying in who I am. All that he has are words, but from them I am capable of discerning things about myself.

It is just like when Wayne calls me on something and asks me if I am being driven by fear. It opens for me the possibility to stop and look at something that I might have been missing. If I find it then I change, I am not becoming who Wayne wants me to be, nor am I becoming Wayne when I listen to him any more than I am becoming T.S. Eliot when I listen to him. I am in complete and total control over who I become, just because I have learned to listen to the experience of others does not make the me that I chose to be any less my own.

As for why quote Eliot, there are a variety or reasons. Part of it is simply an authority thing to get it recognized by other people, people do not listen the same to everyone, it’s like the little maxim that says “if you want to get a group of people to listen to what you have to say, preface it by telling them Benjamin Franklin said it.” Also, I like the way that Eliot uses words. He has a talent as a poet that I do not have. If I had said it better myself then I would quote me.

The point that you have is a very important one. I came up against it alot when I was arguing with Christianity. I was looking at a system that had millions of followers including my parents and everyone that I knew and I was saying that I thought that it was flawed. The question that I was grappling with was by what right do I say that this is not how things are. The answer in short is that the truth is not determined by a vote. It doesn’t matter if the whole world backs one way of seeing, if I know from what I see that the truth is not what they are describing then that is how things are. It doesn’t matter how many high placed people are voting for the other side.

So the problem then is how to tell the truth. A very important question for me, and the method is through developing greater clarity and through learning how to listen. In short I can trust anyone to tell me how the world works, so I am working at getting better at checking it out for myself. A part of this for me has been recognizing that different people have different levels of clarity in different aspects of seeing things. I value different people’s opinions differently depending on the work that they have done. There are some people who I respect a very great deal and who I recognize as having done a better job than I have at conquering their fears and seeing reality more clearly.

And so…back to you and i. My mind and body were not getting attention. The only thing that I was using was my defensiveness and my arguing. And I didn’t like that.

Why didn’t you smack me on the head or yourself as need required and do something about it? It’s not like these things just happened as you watched.

Then deetch contacted me and he talked about his problems. And I realized that he and virginia were in the same place that you and i are.But don’t worry, deetch is like a brother and the mere thought of him as anything more makes me gag. 🙂

So then he asked his question. And for one of the few times in my life, I began to seriously question society. I had no answer. Only what had been given to me with no reason but “the law”. Oh and “the Bible” but religion doesn’t count. So I let my mind sit on it for awhile.

The rules (Bible or law) are not valid determiners for ethical decisions in my opinion. Just because someone made a rule saying that something is wrong doesn’t make it so. That distinction can only be made by an individual. At the same time you have to be willing to suffer the repercussions of your choices. To willingly break the law, even an unjust one and not be willing to suffer the consequences is, I think hypocritical, though I can see a few cases where I would do it.

There is more than the rules at play with why people do not carry on serious romantic relationships with more than one person at a time. The main one for me being simply resources. I have only so much time and so much energy and I am especially with a really deep relationship it would just not be possible to deal with more than one person. Another major reason has to do with trust, trust is essential I think to lowering ego boundaries which is one of the main benefits of a romantic relationship so far as I can see. Why commit to someone and stay with them through the hard times if there is an easier possibility to fall back on.

I am not saying that a multiple person relationship is not feasible or workable, I am saying that it would take people with immense maturity and dedication, a kind of person which I do not think you or I is right now.

Why do you think that people initially made the rules about fidelity and why do some people hold to them today? Are they all just delusional? Where did the initial delusion start?

And then I got mad at Perry. I think that that is fine for his observations. Why can we not make our own scale and call it our own, even if it is like his? Why must we have a scale at all. I don’t want to be classified as a Perry level. I hate boxes. Who cares if they are safe….I want freedom. I think Perry was an idiot. And I don’t see the use of his boxes. But you do. Oh well.

Do you see the value in discussing things with other people to get a perspective outside of yourself?

That is the main usage of models like Perry. It provides a context that different people can use and adapt and communicate with. It is simply an extended form of the concept behind words or anything else. Do you get angry that a car is called a car? Does it bother you that someone has recognized a commonality between there objects with wheels on them that roll around and has provided a general label? Do you have the person who recognized a commonality between trees? Why then Perry? Because you can’t see the things that he has identified?

Yes, I will agree that the ideas are rough around the edges and that there is definite room for improvement, but it has to start somewhere. It works all fine and good for us all to have our own person scales and ideas for things, except for the fact that it leaves us entirely unable to communicate with one another. Using Perry I can define what I observe in contrast to him and say “I think that Perry was wrong on points x, y, and z” and it gives other people a context to understand my ideas from.

Otherwise all that I have is a free floating form that still has a context, but that context is myself and the only person who can understand it is me.

Do you really not see Perry’s ideas being played out? It took me a very long time to begin to see them. Could it be that your anger is not a response to Perry, but instead a response to mindtalk statements that you are incompetent and you should be able to see these things that so many other obviously capable people around you are seeing?

So my mind began to wander. And it brought up things that I hadn’t thought about since the beginning of the semester. And I realized a few things. First, that i still didn’t know what to do about moving and people were bugging me and assuming that I was.

Does it bother you when people think this? If so why? Your behavior has been different as of late and people have been noticing and thinking about it. So far as I can see there is no harm done so long as they just think about it. Have you suffered any negative repercussions because of people thinking that you are going to leave?

Second, that society has a great big box around me and I had the urge to break it somehow.

What is this box? I have heard you talk about your desire to keep this a secret. That is something else that I wanted to talk about.

You want to maintain a fierce independence and keep people at a safe distance, but at the same time you want to have the intimacy of a truly connected relationship; you want people to know who you are. I don’t think that you get to have both, if you want to keep people pushed away and not let them get close enough to hurt you then you at the same time keep them too far away to really care for you either.

To the best of my experience secrets and connection do not work well together. For you to experience the pleasure of connection you have to risk the pain of being hurt. It is pushing past those fears of people hurting me that have been at the core of my work at getting more honest and closer to people.

That is what the backing for any type of box is, being afraid. What are you afraid of that is controlling you?

And third, and this is tough for me to admit, that I was once again, attracted to Scott. Now this plagued my mind for a bit. My first reaction is based on society. It said, “Bad J! You are dating Will!” My second reaction was just pure attraction. My second was curiosity. And sometimes I hate being a curious creature. It gets me in the biggest trouble most of the time.

Why does this bother you so much? It does me a little, but that is just because I am telling myself that I failed as a boyfriend leaving you with unmet needs.

On the whole I value honesty in expression much more than I value comfort. If you are really attracted to Scoot, then that is fine with me. Wondering about other people and being attracted to other people is part of a relationship. I can’t think of anything that you could feel that would drive me away. People have complex sets of emotions and responses for a variety or reasons and I allow people to experience that range.

That goes for feeling, as for acting that is a whole different matter. I do have certain requirements on acting. It’s like for me, I allow myself to write any thought that comes into my head down into a journal, I get angry at people all the time for being stupid, but I am not allowed to treat that person disrespectfully just because I am upset with them. I am not a victim to myself unless I allow myself to be. I make choices and I stand by them. I treat other people the same way.

The part that you wrote about being curious ties into this. It is fine for you to be curious and to have curious thoughts, but the last part of what you wrote suggests that maybe it was your curiosity’s fault what you did. No. It was your choice and you are responsible for the repercussions of it. Yes, it is harder for some people to take control of parts of their life. I am scared to death of people, it is about 500 times harder for me to walk into an intimate setting and be honest than it is for some other people. That doesn’t release me from the responsibility of suffering the pains of distance that I do because I shy away from intimacy. In the end you did what you did and if you had reasons that you stand by then so be it, but you were not a victim to yourself.

So I put those thoughts to the back of my brain as we worked that first friday night, It was kinda hard since he asked me to tape the sign on him. But first and foremost on my mind was the humor of me on my knees before him. And I couldn’t keep from laughing. Sometimes it’s good to have a dirty mind. 🙂 After he was done I was hoping that you might ask me to tape you. But you didn’t. So I was kinda sad. And thoughts grew more prominent in my mind.

The last little bit of that sounds like the tension is rising as our drama builds to a climax; incident after incident where circumstances drove you to do what you did.

Except that this isn’t a play and you were not a hapless character. If things were not going according to your liking then you could have changed them.

Now before I go on I guess I had better define my morals and standards. It might help if you can see things from my mind. My morals are almost non-existent. So I don’t really have a lot to work with there. I have broken many boxes and fought society to get to this point. And believe it or not, I like it here. Makes it interesting and sometimes confuses people. Second, I see nothing wrong with being attracted to a person while dating someone else. Futhermore,thanks to my set of no morals, I don’t see what people define as cheating. But don’t get upset and sad now…..I am not through.

All this is very dependent on how you define morals. If morals are a set of rules that you got from somewhere to live by, like the 10 commandments, then I think that morality is living someone else’s life. If morals are a set of guidelines that you have chosen to live by then I think that morals are the basis for mature action.

Except what you are talking about is very iffy as to whether it should be considered as a moral decision or not. I don’t have a moral problem with stepping in front of a car, that doesn’t mean that stepping out in front of a car will not have repercussions upon me. In the same way, you may not think that infidelity is an immoral act, but that will not keep the repercussions of it from affecting you. Like it or not other people have values structures too and when you are interacting with other people you will feel affects of their values structures.

From the simple viewpoint of functionality you recognized the fact that your interactions with Scott might be the basis of a break-up between us. If you did not want to suffer those repercussions then you should have come and found out what they would be. It seems to be an unavoidable consequence of relationships that you lose a bit of your freedom. Relationships are about sacrifice; love is about sacrifice. Even though I am more content to sit and play on the computer than to go and talk out an issue that is affecting our relationship being committed to a relationship means that I put aside what I want in favor of what I have chosen as right to do.

Even if you have no problem with going around and seeing other guys, I might and for many people that is a major issue, the fact that you kept it hidden for as long as you do is, I think, indicative of the fact that you were aware of that.

You are not in this alone. That is both the cost and the reward. When you need help I have committed to being there, but when you want to do something that I will not accept as part of the relationship you have to choose which you want more. The same holds true for me. There are some things that I want right now that I am not sure that you are willing to give. I will have to choose which I want more, those things or a relationship with you.

It sounds cold and heartless to me, but really that is what it boils down to; a never ending steam of choices.

Do you remember when we all piled on the bed that friday night while John was trying to fix the boom mike? Well…here is something only people that I have entrusted with this info know….since scott was laying with his back to me and we all had our arms around the next person, my fingers were in contact with his. We both moved our hands closer until it was enough to hold. But only imperceptibly.

I was the one laying behind you remember? I could see what you were doing and I watched you all that weekend, noticing the low levels of flirtation. I considered what you two would be like going out.

In terms of the kind of deep and honest relationship that is my particular choice I don’t think that it would be much, but it would probably be fun for a while at least. Alot of defenses that bother me because I am tied to honesty feed right into the manipulation that Scott does. I don’t think that there is the same potential for depth and real connection, but such things take alot of work and many people are not willing to put the time or endure the discomfort necessary to obtain them.

The kind of relationship where the only think that the two people have as a priority is to make each other comfortable is not something that I am interested in. There is only so connected that two people can get before they start to get afraid or start to get uncomfortable. I am interested in going beyond that. It’s more work, but I think it’s worth it.

Now you will also remember that Scott has a GF. So I want no one saying that I seduced him. I did no such thing.

How does the fact that Scott has a girlfriend mean that you seduced him? I not saying that you did, on the whole I would say that he was as much a part of any attraction as you, it’s just that you have two unrelated statements tied together. If anything him having a girlfriend so far away would keep his needs open, but probably unmet.

But my brain was working overtime trying to make sense of it all. Was I just reading too much, what about will, was i reading enough, all of that went through my mind. And if it helps, my brain pulled back into the barriers of the box. And I put the incident away. But i could see that you were at a distance. And so I threw myself into the musical. And I worked hard with it. I let myself go into it. It was my child. And if I worked hard enough, I could forget that there was a world outside JW.

Again, this seems to be for your benefit as a story teller and not so much for me to get actual information from. Right?

So then it was finished. And We had all grown closer. Except me and N who I chewed out on that last night of filming and I still believe that he deserved it.

Not for me either right?

And when Norma saw the video and heard the voices, she realized what I was so upset about and she apologized.

Is this a reference to the “I wish that she would go to the fucking health department?” I’m guess that is what it is, in which case it has already been covered, nothing new to add.

Anyway… I knew that sifter editing was done and I was sitting there movie night after it was over, i knew that my mind would start up it’s questions again. And that scared me.

More of the same? It seems like you are building an elaborate backdrop showing that what you did was just a preponderance of circumstance. Yes, I didn’t always do exactly right and neither did you. That never happens, does this in some way relinquish your responsibility; a victim of circumstance so to speak?

And you left while I was watching Rocky, with no goodbye. Not even a quick note to say you were going. My whole being felt alone. And so my brain quit being scared as it usually is at around 2 in the morning.

I take it that the “brain not being scared” anymore is the lead in for you to finally crush the social box that has been oppressing you by keeping you from being physical with anyone that you are attracted to.

You weren’t very receptive to me after the movie showed and I really didn’t know that it mattered to you that I left. When you went off to see Rocky you pretty much just announced that you were going and you didn’t say anything to me. I got the impression that you were distancing and I played right into it. That is where my detachment stuff comes into play, you would push and I would just let go.

What I meant by you helping me with it is noticing when you think that I am doing it and pointing it out to me. Fear has a nasty way of clouding the perceptions and oftentimes things will slip by me and I won’t realize until it’s too late.

I will tell you now what happened truthfully. But I ask that if you get angry, do it at me. This is my decision to tell you, so face me.

Don’t worry, Scott is not in any way responsible for you, you are responsible for you and I will hold you responsible for the decisions that you make, good and bad.

We finally decided to watch clockwork orange and tron. But clockwork orange was first. So on the couch near the computers, i was sitting on the floor but i laid my head on my arms on the center cushion of the couch. Lucas was at the end near the windows. Scott at the end near the tv. The movie went on for about 10 minutes when Scott laid down without taking any of Lucas’ space and our heads were together. his hand was touching mine…but they were half hidden by a pillow. We stayed that way for the movie. After that we just looked at each other. And then Tron was put in. This time may hand was over his. It was my move. We ended up holding hands. We were like that until the movie was over and we had to get up.

What is it that you gained from doing that? I can see where there was a brief physicality and intimacy need met, but what are the lasting repercussions?

I will also now state that I do not regret a moment of what I did. I do not feel bad about it, nor do I think that I should If you are upset, I want a reason and I want you to tell me why.

What you did does bother me. You willingly did something that you knew could destroy our relationship. I did not mean enough to you for you to control yourself. That bothers me. With the amount of work that I have been putting in on this relationship lately I am wondering if it is not unbalanced. I wrote 20 pages of clearing stuff before I sent my question to you about what you thought was going on in our relationship because being true to you matters to me that much. I am really trying to do the best that I know how and I am not seeing that effort reciprocated. That bothers me.

I do not think that what you did with Scott was “wrong” per se, except that it seems that the reason that you did it was because you were dissatisfied with our relationship. The fact that when the going got tough you got someone else upsets me too. I am trying to trust you and here I have a good example that if things do get too bad you will probably run out on me. I am interested in a committed relationship, I am interested in working on connection and on being honest. Neither of these things is easy and neither of these things are always comfortable. It takes a committment to the relationship to do them and I do not see that.

It bothers that you have done something which could have hurt me very badly, you didn’t know when you were writing this, and you haven’t yet shown any openness or caring. If anything it seems like you are telling me “here is what I did deal with it.”

I do not think that hunting around to get your unmet needs filled elsewhere is a mature way of handling things in a relationship. Especially when you haven’t even talked to me about it yet.

But really the only reason that I am upset is because you hurt me. All of the analytical stuff are things that I will use to examine my behavior and make decisions. The emotional response of anger comes because I have been trying in the last little bit to commit more deeply to our relationship and when I heard about this it just pulled the rug out from under me and I hit the ground hard.

I did not tell you right off because I was faced with the box again. Only this time…it was weaker. Much weaker. This week I said I would break the box. I probably still will do it. I am not sorry. I was unsatisfied, I was attracted to him and had been since the first night of popc when he walked me to the guy’s dorms, and he was attracted to me. No, we have not done anything since. Last night we went out to DQ and got some ice cream. But that has been it. But I tell you now to be honest with you in what I did. But I dare you to find fault with it.

Still so standoffish. I bet that it would feel nice just to relax and stop guarding off the whole world for a while.

I will tell you that from where I am working right now that if you choose to continue to meet physicality needs with Scott, then I will not be in a romantic relationship with you.

It is your choice, but that is where I stand. I have thought about this and fidelity is important enough to me in a relationship as a part of committment that I require it. I do not mind if you are attracted to Scott, I do mind if you are physically intimate with him.

Fidelity might just be a social stereotype that I am playing out. I don’t think so, but there is no way to know for sure. I acknowledge that possibility and choose to act the way that I am acting.

So now I am faced with more regrets if I move without doing something. And I am faced with the problem of what to do and when.

What is still open to regret? What have you left undone?

And I am faced with the possibility of your anger. And I am faced with possibility of being shunned by you and N and wayne and V and even scott.

Yes, those are there. If you chose to go with Scott I will get angry, but that is my problem and I will deal with it. I do think that it would hurt your relationship with Wayne and V if you were not going out with me. After a breakup it is usually uncomfortable for the two people and friends do oftentimes stay in the middle for long. I don’t know about Scott, I really don’t know that much about him except through the filming and seeing him around the dorms.

But since I have no decision, I cannot say what will happen. I do not hope you understand. You either will, or won’t. That is your choice. I made part of mine. And now I must make the other part.

Well, not quite, the ball is back in your court now. You nearly always have choice, it is just figuring out how to use it.

I still care for you. I never stopped. But who says that you cannot care for two at the same time? And since I have given very little trust to anyone, who says that I have to give it away. Just bear with me now as I start the storm. And I will ride it out and see what happens. And you can do the same. (())

I will be here and I will help you to conquer your demons if you like. I think that if you want to be free of them you will have to let go of some of your defenses which would not be easy, but it can be done.

I have been around for a while and I have done some work. I have a long way to go yet, but I also have learned a few lessons along the way. I am a trustworthy person.

And as for trust and giving it away, it seems to work much the same as love and the only way that it has any value is when it is given away. Except for when you use it on yourself. Again, like love, trust for others can only come after you trust yourself.


I hope that this did help you, however, to see what has been going on through my eyes.

                      I don't want the world to see me
                 Cause I don't think that they'd understand
                     When everything's made to be broken
                      I just want you to know who I am

You can have this if you really really want it and are willing to work for it. I believe that.

Let me know what you think about all of this.

You have been sending me messages every so often asking what I am thinking. It has taken so long because I have been writing since 5:00 and it is now 9:00. This is one of the longer pieces that I have written in a while. I think the final count comes out to about 7621 words, wow that’s alot of words.

Peace J (()) -Will

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for: J's reply to my openness journal

Here is J’s reply to my message where I tied to be open and accept my responsibility. I was hoping that she would follow in kind and recognize places where her problems had factored in and would write about them. No such luck. Basically what I got, was “yes, yes, I can see all of your problems, maybe you’ll get closer to the answers I have some day.” Very frustrating. What I had hoped to do was start of again, take responsibility for the problems that I had caused and give her tabula rasa and as issues came up deal with them. Well, here is issue number one, I think that she is partially responsible for the problems in our relationship and I want her to talk about them.

All of this is assuming the ever slimmer possibility that I don’t break up with her or her with me.

I was thinking about what she was saying about dating more than one person at a time being a social constriction. Wayne and I were discussing it the other day when I was complaining about not being able to get what I want in my relationship and he said that he wanted to invite me to share in his which is going well. A really big part of my problem is not that she is going out with someone else (which is big) but also that she is going out with someone who is shallow. If she had been going out with Wayne and approached me about a extended relationship I would at least consider it because I like Wayne and I can deal with Wayne. Scott is a destructive force though. In essence I would be getting in a relationship with him as well and I am not interested in being in a relationship with Scott. Wayne has a way of being that is attractive to me, Scott does not. At the same time J does not especially, but she has her femininity going for her I guess.

Well, here is the message. It was very dissatisfying for me. I tried to open up and put all of my stuff out on the table and I was met with her looking at my stuff and critiquing it.


From:	J
To:	TTU::WJH3957
Subj:	RE: n: being defensive

I have been thinking alot this weekend and I have recognized some stuff since there seems to be a good chance that you will be going to California here soon I’d like for this last little bit here to be as high quality as possible.

Why is it that everyone except me seems to know what I am going to do?

I have a defensive thing that I do that has been with me for a long time and oftentimes I remember to watch, but on occasion, like as of late I have slacked off and been dumb yet again.

S’okay. I have been doing the same thing. But when I get defensive I usually get snappy and pull back of leap right into a heated argument.

So I am ready to pick myself up and dust myself off and have yet another run at this crazy game we call life.

I’m glad someone is.

This defense is basically tied in to a fear of intimacy though maintaining ego boundaries is also part of it. Before I go into it let me define drags.

You? A fear of intimacy?

Drags are actions perpetrated with the intent of inciting a certain response. In the terminology of _Games_ a drag is a complex ulterior transaction. For example a common drag would be if someone is bothering me about something and I will go off and start pouting about it. The pouting is not a mechanism for dealing with the problem directly, rather it is intended to manipulate the other person into stopping. It is interesting and hypocritical the way that I deal with drags considering the extent to which I use them. I also have a problem with leaning on people and asking things of them, so I will oftentimes go and look down trodden in front of people to get them to broach the subject of them helping me rather than me asking.

You see. I refuse to ask for help and I refuse to manipulate for it. I prefer not to make myself look downtrodden.

The problem that I have that is when I am faced with a drag it is most comfortable for me just to ignore it and pretend like there is nothing going on. This is easier because when I bite the hook so to speak I am giving the other person control, which is something that I do not like to do.

ignoring? I do that on occasion but I find that it doesn’t make the problem go away.

I am afraid of letting someone else have control and them hurting me. That is why I ignore drags. It is a fear driven behavior and it keeps me from supporting my friends when they need me, and I do not want to do it.

Sometimes we have to not ignore them, but learn to recognize when they are in need and when they just want something.

I prefer it when I am asked for a response directly because it is more honest than being manipulated, but acting like nothing is going on is not honest either. I want to stop.

Then stop.

Please, if you see me doing this please point it out to me. I really do care about what is going on with you even though I get dumb oftentimes and don’t act like it. (My biggest battle is still with detachment; when something gets hard just saying “well it didn’t matter to me anyway” or “I don’t care.”) It is not honest, it is not respectful, and I am working at stopping. Please help me.

Nice to know that you care. I can only help you if you will help yourself.

You might have just a little bit of time left here and if I am going to be remembered I want to be remembered for the best that I could be and not how dumb I could be.

Trust me……you hold a more dear place in my heart than you could imagine.

Do you remember laying in your bed almost two moths ago and talking? I was just thinking back over stuff and that seems like a lifetime ago.

I know. But I remember it. And I remember all those other nights just laying there. Happy.

I don’t know if I helped at all. But I will do what I can.



                      I don't want the world to see me
                 Cause I don't think that they'd understand
                     When everything's made to be broken
                      I just want you to know who I am

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