Archive for September, 1997

a little bit of me

this is a letter that I just sent to robert, one of the reasons that I am sending it to the group is because of the stuff that I am writing about computers, but also if anyone has any thoughts on anything else I would like to have some opinions.

-Will

Subj:	Catchin' Up

Hey Will,

What have you been up to lately, besides programming? 🙂 I had a terrible weekend. I basically got cussed out and yelled at by a friend. I feel like I am losing all my friends. I can’t seem to grasp reality. I am not doing my best in school. I don’t understand why I can’t begin to feel better. I have never felt this depressed before, so I am having trouble dealing with it. Well, I just decided to send you a message. Get back to me as soon as possible. Are you and D doing okay? How are you yourself doing? I have been boring you with my problems for the past two weeks, and I am sorry if I haven’t asked you how your life is going. I hope everything is going well, if not, talk to me. Well, goodbye.

robert, i have been programming a whole whole lot as of late. i think that i recognize it as an obsessive behavior pattern and there are a variety of things that are pushing me here. one is that computer programming is a perry three place. i can figure things out here and come up with right and wrong answers. if it works then it is right, if it doesn’t then it is wrong. there is also room for me to explore multiplicity in that no-one sets the programs functions but me, and there is no one right way to do that. i choose what is acceptable and what is not. in a world where i can’t figure out what the truth is, and i feel like everything is out of my control, here i have control.

trying to look at the things that you are going through is very hard for me. i don’t know how i feel about it. i do not feel stable enough or strong enough to help you. i am afraid that you will lean on me and i won’t be able to be there. i haven’t been talking to much of anyone as of late. there have been a couple of times that i have pulled out of how i feel so that i could deal with a group of people, but on the whole i feel much more content to be by myself. i do not want you to be hurting, but i also do not want what i feel is the responsibility tied up in trying to help you. my mind says that you are responsible for yourself and me thinking that i am responsible for you is a lie. i am not sure how that works in. i just really don’t know about alot of things.

please respond…

-Will

Leave a Comment

a little thought to mull over

This is something that I thought of as I was in Eng202 yesterday. We were talking about Tennyson and what happened to him when Arthur Henry Hallam died. AHH was Tennyson’s anchor point in a big way, and when Tennyson had that yanked he crashed and burned.

I was wondering what would happen if A were to die. It would rock a good many boats for certain. I was talking to D about it and we discussed dual anchor points where two people anchor off of each other and both go down.

I am curious about people’s thoughts on either subject, particularly on the dual anchor points. I personally have a hard time being stable for other people when I am down. Josh Brady came up while we were talking and got some gist of what we were discussing and said that it sounded like codependency. I don’t think so, though I don’t know. There is more pain and honesty involved in anchor points than I commonly associate with codependency, but perhaps that is a fallacious projection on my part.

-Will

Leave a Comment

where i am…

I do not know if I am going to write about what we talked about last night. I want to do that, but I want to talk about other things more.

I have just gotten back from talking with N. He came and got me out of the computer lab because of a problem that he was facing.

It feels good to me to know that N trusts me and that he feels comfortable talking to me and is willing to come and find me.

We started by talking about problems that he is having with his thoughts and thinking. He came in talking about wanting pain to help push him to a place where he was at last year where he had lots of ideas about things. He is bother by how well he preformed today doing his Keats presentation. He feels like his inability to come up with ideas is related to a lack of pain. We shifted from that to me talking about what focus meant to me. I told N that the way that he used to operate I did not like. It was almost impossible for me to shift to. I told him that I didn’t feel like he listened when he was doing his “high energy intuitive thing.”

As we were walking in front of the UC we were prosteleized by a young man. Going into that was a very interesting experience for me. Talking to N afterwards I realized that the place that I am describing when I am talking about focus is tied to a variety of things. It is tied to listening. It is tied to honesty. It is tied to openness and vulnerability. I was talking to John (the person who witnessed to me) and I was recognizing that I was pulling out of focus. I was having alot of defense mechanisms pop up, like T arguments and not listening.

In looking at this now I wonder if the things that I was noticing in relation to focus were related symptoms or products. I don’t know.

I thought there that the place of focus is listening and not censoring my responses and not censoring what is coming in. As much as I know to do at least. I could realize shifts in it. I went from a low point of -4 to about -2 after talking to J, and then N started to bounce and I went to +1 and couldn’t get back down past -1.

I told N (I can’t judge it real well right now) that I thought that the fact that hearing him bounce like he used to do last year and the affect that it was having on my focus is probably related to some issue that I have with him or with myself that is unresolved.

I can’t think of anything else right now. I feel very tired (it’s 12:01.) I feel very introverted and mellow, but my mind feels like it is clenched a bit.

I plan to write and go back through what we talked about last night. I do not want to right now. I want to go to bed. I feel like running back though N’s and my conversation pulled some of the same memory things, but if you wanted to judge how much i was losing stuff you couldn’t really because you don’t know all that went on.

I remember sex and drugs. And the focus model. I think that our talk had some effect on me. I discovered today that I am getting uncomfortable kissing D. (She wasn’t overjoyed to hear this)

I am proud of having told her and the subsequent conversation which felt honest. I felt like last night that you didn’t know how much of a committment that we have made to honesty. Manipulation: I am saying that I told her that kissing her was making me uncomfortable and something that I wanted not to do alot for a bit, this was hard for me, not extremely but a little, I want to drop it casually in conversation as though it was nothing so that you will respect me.

I feel like I started to shift in a different way because of the perspectives that I picked up on talking to you.

It is very late and I have a very long day tomorrow. I am choosing not to write the rest of the stuff from yesterday right now.

I am not suer exactly why I am choosing. I suspect that a little fear is under there, and the way that my back is cramping suggests that this is true. I am going to sleep though.

-Will

Leave a Comment

finally…

Well, it has taken me two+ weeks, but I have finally gotten my journal on my impressions of cor people done with. Just a couple notes on the journal, I hope to go back and go back though it and think about it later, but right now these are just a few things that I think are important to keep in mind while reading.

I went about this a little differently then I think was originally intended. Each entry is me talking to each person from as honest a place as I felt like I could get to. Anything and everything that was on my mind. For those of you who like to be warned about a journal with alot of emotional non-rational stuff, consider yourself forewarned.

I don’t consider much of anything in this journal (as fuzzy a concept as I have of the whole thing; it has been a long time in the writing, and is very long) to be lasting truth. Right now, I don’t feel particularly attached to anything that I wrote. Quite a bit of it was hard for me to say, and I feel like it is deep seated within me, but there isn’t anything that I can’t see changing.

For about the last week, I have felt like someone put my brain in a blender and hit puree. I have been in a variety of moods, but the general theme has been slight to mild depression. If you read the journal as all entries coming from the same place in me, then you are going to be skewing things alot. I do not feel as open now as I did two weeks ago. Also, the process that I was striving for was honesty. I intentionally projected the hell out of some things because that was what I was feeling. I removed my value judgements on value judgements (for the most part.) The image that is in my mind is I went wandering through the forest and whenever I stumbled on something I stopped and dug it up. Looking back, the ground looks almost like it has been tilled. The ground has been turned and is ready to be planted. This leaves little chunks of slightly related flotsam in the middle of people’s entries, if that was where I happened to find them.

Well, I am going to go get ready for church. Then I can come back and start on the 123 new messages that I have not been reading because I decided that I would finish this journal before I read anymore cor mail.

Fare thee well…

-Will

Leave a Comment

journal — continued response to Mark's questions

I wrote some on this earlier this morning, but I don’t feel that I really got done with it, so I am going through and finishing up the leftover bits.

what is your definition of honesty and truth? you keep using them in your reply to S. does compassion fit in with your picture of honesty or truth?

For me, honesty means not censoring how I feel. I don’t really know how to define it outside of that. The truth is not a permanent thing, but it exists almost absolutely in every moment for every person.

I feel like I am talking like I do when in in the past I have written modeling different thinking styles, but I don’t really feel like I am forcing this position because I see it as more mature. Though I might be, I don’t exactly know. Regardless, it is all that I can see right now.

Okay, I didn’t plan this, but that last statement is a good example of how I see the truth. I am not saying that it is true for all people, but it is true for me. I am also not saying that it is the only truth that is possible for me. I don’t think that it is really possible for me to have more than one thing be “true” at any one moment, though sometimes several things that feel true that I cannot bring together feel like they are part of a larger whole.

I cannot bring the concept of discerning truth outside of feeling at the moment. The truth is what feels true. It is true only at the moment that it feels true, and this explanation is not really adequate because perceiving something as true in the past and the committment that I make to that affects the present.

I will have to think on this some more.

at one point you said (i think) that we have to agree on some core values or the group won’t work. i agree, but later you say that you don’t want people evaluating what you say and if you want to say that V can go kill himself or you can manipulate your brother then no one should object.

One of the things that I think might be a goal for me at least, and I am not sure how much I am considering working towards holding other people to is my personal version of unconditional positive regard.

For me, this is distinguishing between how a person acts/how a person feels and what a person is. People are inherently valuable and inherently beautiful (I am not feeling this as strongly as I did a while ago) in a way that they cannot divorce themselves from by how they think or what they do.

I loose this when I start to treat people as less than people, and there are several relationships where I do not feel I have this, because my personal involvement and strings keep me from treating the other person like a person. That doesn’t mean that I don’t get mad at them, or that I don’t hurt them, or that I feel like I am in a good relationship with them, it just means that I honor them; being a person is what I am referring to.

these both are diametrically opposite my core values and i think that of the majority of the group. so what do we do here? are you asking for the group to make an exception? why the inconsistency? not attacking but asking

What do feel like I want? I want the truth from everyone (I am scared of getting it, but I think that I would like to have it.) I am also doubting this value right now, and I am not sure that any one my relationships would survive if there was complete honesty. I do not understand what you are referring to as an inconsistency. What do you feel like I am asking for that I am not willing to try to return?

I am asking the group to respect my decisions and not try to live my life. I feel willing to do the same. I will not support everyone’s decisions, but I am willing to try to support everyone, though I don’t think that I will do that if I feel like I am not being honest with that person.

peace be with you

and also with you…

(()) -Will

Leave a Comment

honesty — a response

Subj: another question or so

what is your definition of honesty and truth? you keep using them in your reply to S. does compassion fit in with your picture of honesty or truth? at one point you said (i think ) that we have to agree on some core values or the group wont work. i agree, but later you say that you don’t want people evaluating what you say and if you want to say that V can go kill himself or you can manipulate your brother then no one should object.

On the subject of evaluating, I am not opposed to evaluation at all. If I said something that came across as that I did so without really meaning to. I do not know exactly all that I have said over the last few days, so I am not sure that I have not said that. I do not have a problem with someone sating in response to one of my journals “what you have said makes me feel this way” or “I think that the consequences of the decision that you sound like you are making will be X, Y, and Z.” What was bothering me were value judgements. When I get stuff that says “this is what you need to be feeling” or “this is what is right for you to be doing” or “what you are feeling is wrong.” I have enough problems getting honest with myself when I am dealing with those voices in my head; I don’t feel like they need help from outside.

I think that it is important to get a variety of perspectives when trying to make a decision. I like getting input back. When I start to feel like (and this is partly a rebellion thing) someone is telling me the person that I need to be, rather than letting me choose; I don’t like it. I feel like this is my life, and I am the only one who has the right to tell me what is right for me or what I need to be.

these both are diametrically opposite my core values and i think that of the majority of the group. so what do we do here? are you asking for the group to make an exception? why the inconsistency? not attacking but asking

okay, I am rapidly running out of time, (class is almost over) but I am going to try to touch on this, I think that I will have to come back to it later.

I have been wondering what it is that lies within the doors of perception once they have been cleansed. If I say that by being honest I am clearing out distortion filters on how I perceive reality, then what happens when I see reality more clearly? I have been thinking that as people destroy their focus on themselves, then they for some reason become more altruistic, compassionate, selfless, whatever… I have a picture of the unencumbered mind moving towards being the servant of the world, and I am not sure where this picture is coming from or if I accept it or not.

I do not know if someone can be hateful in their heart of hearts. It is easy to say that destruction arises from separation from the divine, and if everyone was clear, then everyone would be caring and the world would be a peaceful place. I just don’t know on this right now.

I’ve got to go, I will try to finish later.

peace be with you

Peace would be really nice. May you find the same.

mark

-Will

Leave a Comment

journal — reply to S's reply to E

Subj:	Journal:  Reply to E's attack

Okay, I have been clearing out my head this weekend as well as my e-mail account. I have two topics that are as of yet unresolved and this message conveiniently touches off one. I don’t know how this will go. My mind has been in a really weird state this morning, jumping all over the place. I feel fairly calm right at this moment, but I have switched to being about as empathic as a doorstop once or twice, and I might start gnawing on someone’s face, so be careful if you need to be.

My goodness, you did get pissed off there. Looks like all these recent problems just pushed you over the edge a little. Sorry.

This is pretty much it. I have been reading in several people’s responses to me, the way that I should be feeling or the way that I ought to act in whatever situation.

When I left on Friday, A said to me “be honest, open, and compassionate.” I feel pretty committed to the first two, but I really don’t know about the third. I get the impression that it is to some extent one of the core committtments that is implicit in mentor, but I am not ready to committ to it.

I want only to find the truth. It makes me sad to say that because I don’t feel any closer than I ever have been. I don’t even really know that it exists. I do feel that I have the propensity to be more and less honest, and so do other people. The bearing that this has on actual reality is inconsequential.

I don’t like it when S says “over the edge.” I feel like he is saying that E went too far, and I don’t think that there is a too far. I am striving to be as honest with myself as possible, and other people protecting me and censoring their true feelings to help me is no favor what-so-ever. Of cor in general, I don’t think that lies to protect other people have a place. Lies to protect ourselves I can deal with if it is simply too painful to deal with the truth. Mindfullness and avoiding hiding in the lies is imporant here.

Oh yeah. If this sounds like a tirade, sorry. I’m kind of pissed about the way some people are treating others, and the way that some people are being just plain immature about time commitments.

*Ok, what are you seeing that you are not telling us? How about calling people on their actions if you think they are acting out of line or immaturly? Yes, I know that I have done little and seen a few things myself…surly done some stupid stuff too. I agree with the time commitment problem. I look at myself and try to define priorities and see others having the same problem. Do I quit Wal-Mart just so I can commit to the Sunday meetings or other meetings that may interfere with work schedule? I have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of Wal-Mart and Cor meetings. I don’t have to attend the meetings for personal growth to an extent, but in a humble way, people are missing out on what I can share in the group. sigh Some people have commitments with religious groups and fraternities, etc. that may have priority over Cor meetings. However, they can still share a journal over email every once in a while.

Just to get my two cents in here, I think that it is important that the people who are involved with cor to be committed to at least some extent. I have trouble figuring out how to judge that committment though. The only way that I know to test committment is to look at it internally. It is very hard for me to look at action, even my own, which I know everthing about, and use it as a judge of committment.

I am not comfortable judging other people’s committments. To some extent I feel like I get an impression of how a person’s committments are structured by how the person treats them, but not enough that I would be willing to act on that information. Committments are too complicated.

I guess I can give a structue so that other people can understand too: What I am really working out of right now is the cor group and wondering if everyone who is in it belongs there. I don’t think that it is for everyone in general, and if someone doesn’t believe in the central values, then why be there? There have been people who have not been writing very much, but what does that mean? There have been times when I did not have much to write, nor was I interested very much in dealing with other people’s problems. I think that time to rest away from everything might be a necessary part of the process. If you had taken a sample then and used it to judge committment, I would not be very high on the list because I was not. If you had started cutting people out then I wouldn’t be here now when the committment feels fairly strong.

I guess I am going to go through and pick up at least in part the second unresolved issue that I mentioned at the beginning. I don’t understand what people are talking about with trust. Does this mean that when I send something out to the cor group and I trust them it will never come back to hurt me. I don’t really believe that. I guess to some extent I do trust because I recognize that I am more honest with this group than with say the guys that I worked with over the summer. I believe that you will all act with at least a little bit of maturity and you will not want to hurt me very maliciously.

Part of the transition that I have been going through over the last week or so is trying to treat other people like I treat myself. I have been striving for the truth and been offering it up to everyone reguardless of how little I thought they wanted to hear it. The difference is that I don’t think it is realistic to hold you all to the same standards as I hold myself in dealing with me. I say some of the nastiest things, but there is something of an unconditional positive reguard think going on. I have not really disliked myself for a really long time. I don’t always like what I do or how I feel, but I never really reject myself.

Can I do this with other people?

Can I ask other people to do it to me?

Those of you who aren’t writing anything at all, are you really planning to commit to doing growth work? I’d love to hear from you… you’re all special people to me, but how can you expect me or anyone else to trust you if you aren’t willing to share what *you* think about with the rest of us? E-mail isn’t that hard, and it really doesn’t suck up all that much time. This feels really out of place or me to say these things, as I was really disconnected from any sort of growth before the middle of the spring.

*They don’t sound like special people to you after reading some of the above. I’m sorry but I now have a hangup with your attacks. Maybe my latest journals come across this way too, but I try not to sound so offensive and high-and-mighty. However, I do agree that email isn’t that difficult/time consuming to write something once a week or so. Maybe some of us have to use the lab computers or lounge computers and feel vulnerable amongst stranges and over-the-shoulder onlookers there? I feel a disconnectedness without the sharing, but I’m trying not to let it bother my trust process.

I am wanting to go to bed, so I will try to make this concise. The problem that I have is that when I journal I am getting back responses something like this, looking at the statements that I have put down of how I feel, and labeling them as good or bad. If there are feelings that are not accepable in cor, then I do not think that it can properly serve it’s purpose.

I have had a burr under my sadle about this all day, and I am having trouble nailing down exactly where the problem lies.

I do not think that cor can truly serve as a forum for honesty unless there are no holds barred. But it is more than that. I don’t want people writing and telling me that the right thing to do is to focus on one type of relationship, or that what I need to do is x, y, or z.

I don’t mind when people try to help me gain clarity and understand where I am coming from, but when I start hearing that it is not okay to come from whre I am coing from, then I have a problem.

Maybe I chose to hate my brother, destroy his life, and hope that he rots in hell. Maybe I know that my hatred is destroying me inside and I want to have it anyway, because it makes me feel good. Maybe I really don’t feel like playing V’s fucking games anymore and he can go blow his damn brains out for all I care. Maybe I can see all the things that I can learn from him and I don’t care to know them. Maybe I think cor and mentor is a crock of shit and serves only to support the inadiquacies of a group unable to cope with the real world.

I am tired of playing people’s games and pulling punches to avoid hurting people. I refuse to believe that cor is just another game to play and try to figure out the right thing to say to get the prize.

If this is not about the truth, then what is it about?

Those of you who aren’t writing anything at all, are you really planning to commit to doing growth work? I’d love to hear from you… you’re all special people to me, but how can you expect me or anyone else to trust you if you aren’t willing to share what *you* think about with the rest of us? E-mail isn’t that hard, and it really doesn’t suck up all that much time. This feels really out of place or me to say these things, as I was really disconnected from any sort of growth before the middle of the spring.

*They don’t sound like special people to you after reading some of the above. I’m sorry but I now have a hangup with your attacks. Maybe my latest journals come across this way too, but I try not to sound so offensive and high-and-mighty. However, I do agree that email isn’t that difficult/time consuming to write something once a week or so. Maybe some of us have to use the lab computers or lounge computers and feel vulnerable amongst stranges and over-the-shoulder onlookers there? I feel a disconnectedness without the sharing, but I’m trying not to let it bother my trust process.

I am wanting to go to bed, so I will try to make this concise. The problem that I have is that when I journal I am getting back responses something like this, looking at the statements that I have put down of how I feel, and labeling them as good or bad. If there are feelings that are not accepable in cor, then I do not think that it can properly serve it’s purpose.

I have had a burr under my sadle about this all day, and I am having trouble nailing down exactly where the problem lies.

I do not think that cor can truly serve as a forum for honesty unless there are no holds barred. But it is more than that. I don’t want people writing and telling me that the right thing to do is to focus on one type of relationship, or that what I need to do is x, y, or z.

I don’t mind when people try to help me gain clarity and understand where I am coming from, but when I start hearing that it is not okay to come from whre I am coing from, then I have a problem.

Maybe I chose to hate my brother, destroy his life, and hope that he rots in hell. Maybe I know that my hatred is destroying me inside and I want to have it anyway, because it makes me feel good. Maybe I really don’t feel like playing V’s fucking games anymore and he can go blow his damn brains out for all I care. Maybe I can see all the things that I can learn from him and I don’t care to know them. Maybe I think cor and mentor is a crock of shit and serves only to support the inadiquacies of a group unable to cope with the real world.

I am tired of playing people’s games and pulling punches to avoid hurting people. I refuse to believe that cor is just another game to play and try to figure out the right thing to say to get the prize.

Those of you who aren’t writing anything at all, are you really planning to commit to doing growth work? I’d love to hear from you… you’re all special people to me, but how can you expect me or anyone else to trust you if you aren’t willing to share what *you* think about with the rest of us? E-mail isn’t that hard, and it really doesn’t suck up all that much time. This feels really out of place or me to say these things, as I was really disconnected from any sort of growth before the middle of the spring.

*They don’t sound like special people to you after reading some of the above. I’m sorry but I now have a hangup with your attacks. Maybe my latest journals come across this way too, but I try not to sound so offensive and high-and-mighty. However, I do agree that email isn’t that difficult/time consuming to write something once a week or so. Maybe some of us have to use the lab computers or lounge computers and feel vulnerable amongst stranges and over-the-shoulder onlookers there? I feel a disconnectedness without the sharing, but I’m trying not to let it bother my trust process.

I am wanting to go to bed, so I will try to make this concise. The problem that I have is that when I journal I am getting back responses something like this, looking at the statements that I have put down of how I feel, and labeling them as good or bad. If there are feelings that are not accepable in cor, then I do not think that it can properly serve it’s purpose.

I have had a burr under my sadle about this all day, and I am having trouble nailing down exactly where the problem lies.

I do not think that cor can truly serve as a forum for honesty unless there are no holds barred. But it is more than that. I don’t want people writing and telling me that the right thing to do is to focus on one type of relationship, or that what I need to do is x, y, or z.

I don’t mind when people try to help me gain clarity and understand where I am coming from, but when I start hearing that it is not okay to come from whre I am coing from, then I have a problem.

Maybe I chose to hate my brother, destroy his life, and hope that he rots in hell. Maybe I know that my hatred is destroying me inside and I want to have it anyway, because it makes me feel good. Maybe I really don’t feel like playing V’s fucking games anymore and he can go blow his damn brains out for all I care. Maybe I can see all the things that I can learn from him and I don’t care to know them. Maybe I think cor and mentor is a crock of shit and serves only to support the inadiquacies of a group unable to cope with the real world.

I am tired of playing people’s games and pulling punches to avoid hurting people. I refuse to believe that cor is just another game to play and try to figure out the right thing to say to get the prize.

It really angers me that people who have made the first steps toward growth, and have supposedly seen *why* they might want to commit to this work, are not doing it. Would they not have been better off to have done nothing at all?

*Oh boy. You really bother me there. Any step toward growth…any amount of awakening is worth all this trouble Cor is going through. No one is better off doing nothing at all…we do not need that kind of put-down talk here. My God, I can’t believe you said that…sigh. Statements like that can do so much damage, E.

I am cool with S saying how he feels, and even his perspective, but when he says that E should not have said what he did because “we do not need that kind of put-down talk here,” I firmly and resolutely stand opposed and take deep offense.

I think this paragraph has the emotional potential to piss off a lot of people. On the other hand, it is rather objective and truthful. If you don’t like it, well, that would seem to be too bad, now wouldn’t it?

*sigh

Evidently, you who I am addressing do not have any sort of answers that I’m interested in seeing. You’re self-limited, and I’m sorry I didn’t see it before.

*This kind of poor attitude makes me shudder to think…sigh I’m drained and not even halfway through all these journals. May our future be brighter after we all work together.

Heavy Heart and Hanging Head,

Leave a Comment